Spring Training - No two words elicit such feeling hope, excitement and anticipation for a baseball fan. Every spring training brings with it players hoping to "bounce back" and who are in "the best shape of their lives". In addition every spring training brings position battles, aging veterans trying to hold on and yes rookies trying to make the team or showcase their skills and show that they deserve their "top prospect" or "future star" label that they felt they had earned.
It is with this last point in mind that i write this post. I have been a Mets fan for 20 + years. Thats 20 + years of hope, excitement and anticipation. Its also 20 + years of aging veterans and "cant miss prospects", some of who have stuck but most of who have not.
Ive been putting together an all-over-hyped Mets team of the last 20 years. You know the type im talking about - the type that the team wont include in the trade for the superstar. The type the team talks about in terms of when not if.
So now without further ado i (with some help - thank you Dov) present to you ......
The All Over-Hyped/BUST Mets Team Of The Last Two Decades
Ill go in order of the diamond starting with my starting 51) Paul Wilson
2) Bill Pulsipher
3) Jason Isringhausen
Generation K - Hard to separate these 3 - boy what a letdown that was. Not one, not two, but three great arms in one farm system. Man!
4) Grant Roberts- Do you realize that in 2002 he didnt give up a run until his eighth game! In June his ERA was 0.59!! And then BOOM! rotator cuff surgery and effectively his career came to an end. Oh! he was also way ahead of his time as he was suspended for violating the minor leagues steroid policy.5) Aaron Heilman
In 2003 he was the 45th rated prospect in all of baseball! He teased us both as a starter (i still remember his one-hitter in 2005 against the Marlins - broken up by none other than Louis Castillo) and a reliever. In 2006 he was actually quite good. Until he was quite bad. And then he was very bad.
In addition ill add Octavio Dotel for long relief/spot starter
Remember the hype in 2000 about Dotel and about how he was going to be the secret weapon out of the bullpen in the playoffs.
C - Brook Fordyce - I pick him only because there is nobody else. In 1991 he was the 47th rated prospect in baseball
1B - Rico Brogna - Again not much comes to mind - but remember that summer of Rico. I actually cheated quite a bit here as Rico was actually a product of the Tigers and got traded to the Mets. Still - what a tease.
2B - Gregg Jeffries - He may be the captain of this team.
SS - Rey Ordonez - still think hes the greatest defensive SS ive ever seen and as such almost didnt put him on this list. But to look back and remember how people would compare him and Jeter is just funny - or sad
3B - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET IT NOT BE DAVID WRIGHT!!
OF - Alex Escobar - He was the one finally included in the deal that brought Roberto Alamor to the Mets. He was named the organizations top prospects for three straight years! He finished his career with a total of 125 games in four seasons
OF - Lastings Millidge - twice named the organizations top prospect - the guy they wouldnt include in a deal for Manny. Are you kidding me?!? The worst part is that they then shipped him off for Ryan Church!
OF - Victor Diaz - "The next Manny Ramirez" - need i say more?
A couple of notes: 1 - I did not count Kaz Matsui although i saw many people who did.
2 - This list is unscientific and not quite complete so please comment, ill reviews and change if i feel like it
3 - Im going to give Mike Pelfry and Fernando Martinez some more time.
Let me know what you think!!
How about Jason Phillips as a catcher, remember, the guy hit .300 as a rookie, now he is washing cars :)
ReplyDeleteOn 2B/SS: Jeffries actually went on to have a productive career, hard to call him a bust.
David Wright has already done enough to not be a bust. How about Butch Huskey?
I like your other picks!
pretty,pretty good analysis.
ReplyDeleteWe always and I mean always over hype our prospects.
Except for Reyes, Wright and Kazmir they were all busts.
When you don't go over slot and have an incompetent if not non-existant scoutinf staff what do you expect?
Don't forget Jason Tyner
ReplyDeleteAlex Ochoa...
ReplyDeleteChris Donnells
Jose Oquendo
Every player we got in the Seaver Trade!!!
Pat Zachary - Lenny Randle - Doug Flynn - Joel Youngblood - Dan Norman
The Captain should be Ellis Valentine, the man actually had to wear half a football helmut!!!!
At least Jefferies could hit!!!!!
Last but not least!!! Craig Swan!!!!!!
Why would you think Wright? He has won Golden gloves and silver sluggers. He has been consistent except for ONE YEAR! Look past one year and see his body of work. If you are hoping he isn't a bust then you need to put Reyes on the list too.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like the two of them have been amazing or anything.
I take exception with at least one of your picks: Aaron Heilman. Did we all have higher hopes for his performance, yes. However, your analysis fails to point out:
ReplyDelete2005 - 3.17 ERA
2006 - 3.62 ERA
2007 - 3.03 ERA
2008 - 5.21 ERA
Was he bad in 2008, oh yes. However, for three years, he was one of the team's more consistent performers. his 2009 ERA of 4.11 with the Cubs is more in line with his 2005-2007 numbers.
So, was he maybe a let down for a few fans (you)? Yes. Is he the 5th biggest bust pitcher in the over 40 year history of a baseball team? FAR from it.
Third Base - can be anybody and everybody expect Wright, i think the Mets have had more players start at 3B than they have years in existance. It was always the black hole of this team, until Wright, now is 2B, soon to be 1B as well only if Ike Davis doesnt pan out - Cant miss right?,
ReplyDeleteGreat List, for me besides for Gen-K - which I remember watching Russ Salzberg interviewing the threesome during spring training, and watching all 3 fire fastball after fastball, what a sight, o what could have been!
But to me the biggest and overhype bust was Alex Escobar, 5 tool player - and to think we nabbed Robbie Alomar for him!!! and we threw in Billy Trauber
I was a big fan of Grant, he did throw me a ball during batting practice when I went to Philly for a game, so to me he is not a bust!
In response to anonymous about the incompetent scouting staff and this "not paying over slot" talk.
ReplyDeleteThat incompetent staff got David Wright on a supplementary pick. So they found the diamond in the rough after EVERY OTHER TEAM HAD A PICK! That incompetent staff gave us Reyes. That same staff gave us the the guys that all of baseball chose as top prospects even if they didn't turn out.
Our scouting is actually quite amazing. Every team has busts it's part of the game. Every guy on this list was considered a top prospect by baseball... not just the Mets. Sounds like the staff has been pretty good for decades.
And as for not paying over slot... do you know what your talking about? You realize this team DOES shell out good money for their players? They pay more than most teams do each year. If you want, they can COMPLETELY overspend every year and way overpay these prospects that have proved nothing. If you want to throw money at players... become a Yankee fan.
According to J. Heyman the mets spend less on scouting than every other team in the Majors. We mite have made the picks that all the experts thought were cant miss prospects, but we either rushed these guys or they werent really good to begin with.
ReplyDeleteAs far as shelling out money, there are 2 ways to spend, the smart way or the stupid way. the mets fall into the stupid category. They do not maximize their dollar value. Yes, last year was a fluke with all the injuries, but there were still deficiencies with this team. The fact that so many players got hurt, just masked the problems, who will be the 5th starter? 1B? C? set-up man?
Minaya lives with his head in the sand, this team has some good components, but def. lacking in alot of areas.
Okay, Im done venting
I think David west needs to be added to this list.
ReplyDeleteYou may want to extend this team's scope back into the mid 80's just so you can include Sean Abner.
ReplyDelete"Rey Ordonez . . . remember how people would compare him and Jeter is just funny - or sad" - and you didn't even throw in something negative about jeter. I'm proud of you, man.
ReplyDelete3B - Look, I think D. Wright is fair game at this point. He has been a good player, but he sort of has hit a plateau as a 30-HR, 100-rbi, .300-avg. guy (throw in some steals for good measure). Those are good numbers, but not superstar numbers. And I think people really thought he would become a superstar. He has 3 or 4 years of staying flat, plus one huge year of regression (140 strikeouts! yeesh), leads me to believe he as an opportunity to become "overhyped." So while I don't think you can label him a "bust," he can definitely still earn an "overhyped" label.
Hey, I don't know about 90% of the names on this list and from the other comments (I don’t really know why I would follow the mets farm system), but boy Lastings Millidge sure was a major bust.
Do prospects we traded away count? The four we traded for Johan look like good candidates. Humber was a college stud and a top pick. Now?
ReplyDeleteThere were also a lot of catchers over the years - Mike Fitzgerald, Mackey Sasser, Ed Hearn, etc.
Shimi where is your head? 30HR 100RBI and 300avg ARE considered superstar numbers. If you do that every year for 12-15 year career you make the hall...
ReplyDeleteShimi said- "D. Wright is fair game at this point. He has been a good player, but he sort of has hit a plateau as a 30-HR, 100-rbi, .300-avg. guy (throw in some steals for good measure)." I wish he was joking. Those are all-star numbers, particularly given his gold-glove capabilities. Any GM would lock in those numbers at any position if they could, let alone 3rd base. We consider it a down year when he hits .300, has a 390 OBP, 27 stolen bases, 39 doubles, and over 70 RBI.
ReplyDeleteCan we add GM's to the list of busts?
ReplyDeletePlease add the following, Mike Vail, Tim Leary, Roy Staiger, Steve Henderson and Ryan Thompson
ReplyDeleteEvery player we got in the Seaver Trade!!!
ReplyDeletePat Zachary - Lenny Randle - Doug Flynn - Joel Youngblood - Dan Norman
Randle and Youngblood were not part of the Seaver trade. Zachry was decent on an awful team and Flynn won a Gold Glove.
Catcher is Barry Lyons, no question. He was being groomed to succeed Gary Carter as a middle of the order threat.
ReplyDeleteShortstop is Tim Foli - a first round pick who amounted to nothing.
Outfield - I'd replace Diaz with Shawn Abner. Another first rounder who did nada.
Everything else - I think you're dead on.
Does Jay Payton Count?
ReplyDeleteWOW! OK guys - here we go in order.
ReplyDeleteOLDBACKSTOP - "Jason Phillips - good point i was going to put him there but he was never even a top 100 prospect. That being said i might change my mind on that, you seem like the type of guy to take advice about catchers from ;)
Jeffries - sorry dude but this guy was billed as the next Pete Rose.
David Wright -IM ONLY SAYING THIS ONCE - THE DAVID WRIGHT COMMENT WAS A JOKE! I agree i might put Butch Huskey in there.
Pat - Tyner was not AS BIG a bust but good point.
William - I originally had Ochoa on the list but took him out at the last second and replaced with Diaz. I guess you can go either way.
Anonymous - point taken maybe the pain of the Molina HR is just too much for me to bear.
JSILB - your passion inspires me! but think about it - in the last 20 years, who would qualify as a bust. We went from HoJo to Alfonzo to Ventura to Wiggington (maybe him?) to Wright.
GIVE ME A NAME!
Justin - Ryan Thomson and Jay Payton were two guys who also just missed the list - i think im going to fill out this team in a seperate post with bench players and a bullpen.
Anonymous - Dead on! my bad - dont know how i forgot Barry Lyons! Foli and Abner dont meet the criteria of "last 20 years"
Barry Lyons was never considered that big a deal.
ReplyDeleteTim Foli was the starting shortstop on a World Championship team - '79 Pirates. He wasn't that great, but hardly a "bust."
But how about - Steve Chilcott - picked before Reggie Jackson?
And Billy Beane - the genius behind the Oakland A's - another 1st round pick.
Catcher would be Steve Chilcott, from before your time. See this link: he's the second runner up after the top 10 draft busts of all-time in all sports.
ReplyDeletehttp://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/worst/no1picks.html
Benny Agbayani!!!!
ReplyDeletedoes juan samuel count?
ReplyDeleteAlex Ochoa?
ReplyDeletePutting Dotel on this list is really not fair. He pitched a for about a month or two in 1999 before being dealt in the Mike Hampton deal with Roger Cedeno before the 2000 season so to say he was a bust is ridiculous. Not only has he had a decent career but he brought the Mets an ace in 2000, who without the team would not have won the pennant.
ReplyDeleteBoth Rico Brogna and Victor Diaz do not belong on this list if you are only looking for players that started with the Mets organization. Like you said Brogna came from the Tigers and Diaz came from the Dodgers in the Jeromy Burnitz trade in 2003. While Diaz was a complete waste, Brogna was very productive on some bad teams in the mid-1990's.
Also, with Ordonez, Mets fans knew exactly what they were getting. He was hyped as a tremendous fielder who can't hit to save his life and that is exactly what he was. While the Jeter comparisons were ridiculous, I think Ordonez was exactly as advertised.
I would replace Brogna with Butch Huskey and put Chris Donnels at 3B since he never amounted to anything after being a first round pick.
SP-Anthony Young
ReplyDeleteRP-Doug Sisk
C-Mackey Sasser
1B-Randy Milligan
2B-Keith Miller
SS-Rey Ordonez
3B-Ty Wigginton
OF-Alex Ochoa, Ryan Thompson, Jeromy Burnitz
Brian Bannister was pretty highly touted as a prospect. Surgery, released, now he's wasting away in Kansas City.
ReplyDeleteSorry, didn't see the post above mine. Great minds think alike.
ReplyDeleteCan you really put in Jason Isringhausen because he actually had a pretty solid career outside of the organization? He didn't do well with the Mets, I know, but he did good elsewhere, but if you're focusing on their time with the Mets then why not put in Jeremy Burnitz?
ReplyDeleteHow about Kevin Mitchell and Mo Vaughn?
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous (one of the many): well, I wasn't flat out joking but you can say it was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Hey, I like getting mets fans riled up!
ReplyDeleteBut to address your point: I never said D. Wright is a bad player. He is a very good player. Of course any GM would want such a player. But in my opinion, I don’t think he has put up SUPERSTAR numbers. He’s never had an MVP-type season yet.
As for his down year: come on, it must alarm you somewhat that he put up this kind of stinker at this stage in his career instead of trending upwards. "Over 70 RBI" for a middle of the order guy is horrendous. And if you’re going to strikeout 140 times, you’ve got to do better than 10 HRs.
All of that leads to the possibility that he may be, you know, "overhyped."
Anonymous, Bannister was traded for Burgos.
ReplyDeleteOchoa/Thompson over Diaz is my only gripe. Think its too early for Milledge too, but as a Met, yes he was a bust. I'm only 21 so I remember almost all of these guys, but was Kevin Elster ever considered to be a good prospect? I just don't see Ordonez being too much of a bust either when he was a part of the greatest defense infield i've ever seen.
I can't believe nobody mentioned Steve Chilcott....
ReplyDeleteWho's he?
He's the player the Mets selected # 1 Overall in 1967....
Who went # 2? Reggie Jackson....
How in God's name can David Wright be anywhere in the same zip code of an "overhyped" or "bust" list? That alone would take away all credibility of such a list if it werent' for the fact that you got most of the rest of it right. Wright has been great, and as advertised. Multiple All-Star? So what, his power numbers go down one season, when every bat around him gets hurt, and you want to say he's overhyped? Low blow!
ReplyDeleteThe rest are pretty accurate. Don't forget Alex Ochoa, who was supposed to be the second coming when we got him from B-more. Geffries as the captain is dead on. In fact, he might be one of the most overhyped prospects of all time, Mets or otherwise.
I do take issue w/ Ordonez as well, though. I seem to remember they had him spot-on from the very beginning - all glove and not much else. I never remember him being compared to anything much with his bat. I think - at best - people were hoping he'd develop into Ozzie Smith at the plate, which he obviously never did. But all the hype around him had everything to do with defense and nothing else. As such, how can you say he was overhyped?
Great topic of discussion. I guess I view the term "bust" a little differently, though if they were deemed overhyped, I could see that. In some cases, these guys were dealt away by the Mets perhaps before they reached their potential. Or, at the least, they went on to prove to be long-term players.
ReplyDeleteJefferies was a two-time All-Star in St. Louis, Izzy became a great closer, Heilman is still pitching (so it's hard to make a final call) and Milledge, while definitely immature and still developing, hasn't become a bench player just yet.
Wright is a four-time All-Star and has three top-10 MVP finishes, so he's not overhyped. "Plateauing" at 30 HR, 100 RBI and .300 is a perennial All-Star and a Hall of Fame career track if he can keep it up well into his 30s. As for last year, it's too soon to tell. One down year is nothing if he bounces back the next season. Everyone's focusing on the Citi Field factor for his season, but I keep pointing out that the Mets lost their sparkplug (Reyes) and their top slugger (Delgado) for most of the season. Both of those absences affected Wright even before Beltran went down. Without Reyes on base, the whole offense changed and Wright didn't have the RBI opportunities. And without the lineup protection, Wright didn't have the luxury to wait for his pitch. I think the 140 Ks were more a result of trying too hard to make up for the injuries of others. Let's see what this season brings.
And for what it's worth, Chris Donnels would be my third baseman.
Some via trade, some through free agency, some through Mets system
ReplyDeleteC- Brook Fordyce, Ron Hodges
1B- Jorge Toca
2B-Roberto Alomar, Manny Alexander
SS- Frank Taveras, Garry Templeton
3B- Roy Staiger
OF-George Foster, Tsuyoshi Shinjo, Terrence Long, Dave Schneck.
P- Kris Benson, Julio Valera, Jason Jacome, Reid Cornelius, Pete Schourek, Kaz Ishii
How about Wally Whitehurst?
ReplyDelete@ shimi: here's what you wrote about wright -"But in my opinion, I don’t think he has put up SUPERSTAR numbers. He’s never had an MVP-type season yet."
ReplyDeletehe's played 5 full seasons, and in 2 of them he won a silver slugger and gold glove. what exactly is your definition of superstar?
he also has finished in the top 10 in mvp voting THREE times, including as high as 4th in 2007. what else serves as an mvp-type season in your mind?
when you make comments like this, it invalidates anything else you have to say.
Good Point SZ - I was not saying there was a pinpoint bust @ 3B, although Chris Donnells would be it. Also I would not label Anthony young a bust, but he did lose 27 consecutive games, I was there for his 21st in row, he lost to the cubbies, rick wilkins of all people took him deep, i think twice.
ReplyDeleteTo address Shimi - What do you expect from a Redskins Fan!!! The guy thinks he is some sort of GURU, but in reality, he is just another talking head spewing his hatred of the Mets - THERE YOU GO BERGER!!!
METS FOREVER!!!
Also can we please get a petition going at Citi Field for Diet Dew to be served? This is a worthy cause that must be addressed!
Kevin Elster over Ordonez, easily. A lot of people forget how good Ordonez was defensively. I was watching Mets Classics recently and saw Orodnez going into the hole to field a ground ball and do his slide, pop and throw. Was great stuff. Seemed like every ball hit on the ground against us in 99 was an out.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous: "he also has finished in the top 10 in mvp voting THREE times, including as high as 4th in 2007" - what can I say, I'm not impressed. He was never in serious contention for an MVP award, as far as I know.
ReplyDeleteto mr. silber: ah, yes, my beloved redskins. you're just jealous we got shanny. :)
ReplyDeletepoint on rey ordonez, he won 3 THREE straight gold gloves and probably should have had a fourth.
ReplyDeletehe is arguably the best fielding shortstop in the history of the franchise.
how can he possibly be a bust (did you actually see him play short in his prime ? he was worth the price of admission)
With a bust at shortstop/second base (since he was supposed to be able to play both, though he was primarily a shortstop), I would actually go with Ryan Jaroncyk over Rey Ordonez. The Mets took Jaroncyk in the first round in 1995 and nobody could stop talking about his work ethic. I remember reading some article about 15 years back where he actually wrote under his high school photo or something "I play for God." Well, he was supposedly pretty religious, but that wasn't exactly true.
ReplyDeleteYou know how some parents fanatically push their kids in Little League or Babe Ruth League or High School? I'm sure you do...heck, when I played BRL (which was the highest I ever got, lol), we had some kid's dad screaming at him "they don't swing like that in the Majors, son!" Turns out that Ryan Jaroncyk was the first one of those guys ever to be drafted in the first round of the MLB draft. His parents just pushed him to the max. Prevented him from playing any other sport, his Dad made him practice baseball constantly...by the time the Mets drafted him, he was finally out of the house and...surprise, surprise...dying to get away from baseball.
He looked promising in 1995, but his numbers collapsed in 1996, and as I recall, he himself very nearly collapsed, too. In 1997, he spilled his guts about his parents to the front office, who let him go immediately. He celebrated by throwing away all of his baseball equipment with his wife. I always like to think Ryan Jaroncyk got it straightened out on a personal basis...like I said, I've known kids who've been pushed like that. Oh, but the Mets never asked for any of his signing bonus or contract back. Whoops...
David West....the first cant miss of my lifetime...after doing nothing with the Mets he was included in a trade for Frank Viola and had an ERA of INFINITY(look it up) in the '91 World Series. Yes, he got a ring.
ReplyDeleteNo one remembers Gary Rajisch? The 1B who led AAA in homers year after year? And any Mets fan from the late 80's/early 90's should know the hype around Chris Donnels was ridiculous --- he led the IL in hitting and was one of the reasons they wanted to move HOJO out of 3B. I think SS is littered with busts aside from Ordonez -- from Tim Foli to Jose Moreno (1979-80)to Gardenhire/Oquendo and --- the best of all -- KEVIN ELSTER! Jeez -- the guy was going to be a 25HR/year gold glover and building block for the 90's! Catchers -- how about John Gibbons over Barry Lyons? Or Ron Reynolds (1981-82)? And if you want to talk about draft busts we can bring in Kirk Presley.
ReplyDeleteThank you everybody for the comments. I asked for them and i got them. After reading some more of these comments I admit that i have changed my mind on a couple of things. I would put Alex Ochoa instead of Victor Diaz. Chris Donnalds is my 3B - Ill never forget the great Bob Murphy saying "Instead of the crowd chanting 'Daryl Daryl' theyre chanting 'Donnalds Donnalds'!" I could put Barry Lyons as my catcher. Allow me to explain my choice of Ordonez at SS. Yes i saw him play in his prime. Quite a bit actually. I think youre overlooking what a good defensive SS Kevin Elster was. He did hold the major league record for consecutive games without an error for a SS. Of all the great things about Ordonez though ill always remember that he couldnt get a bunt down in the 99 NLCS against the Braves. That being said lets just say i would carry two SS on this team. As for Shimi - youre comments are too ridiculous to address except for your mention that you cant be considered an all-time great without an MVP award. Being a Yankee fan you should know - look at your current SS and 3B. Lastly - i did not know about Ryan Jaroncyk - but here is a great piece on him http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/30/sports/a-met-prospect-walks-away-from-baseball.html?pagewanted=all
ReplyDelete@ Shimi: In 2007, David Wright put up a .419 OBP and a 149 OPS+, while tallying 100-plus runs and RBI along with 30 HR. He deserved the MVP over Jimmy Rollins.
ReplyDeleteDavid West - totally untouchable pitcher !!!
ReplyDeleteShawn Abner - Nation's #1 pick
Stanley Jefferson - big time hype
Tyler Yates - stud pitcher
Alex Ochoa - 5 tool player, unfortunately non of those tools were very good.
The hype came before the Mets even got a chance to hype him, but I'd add Billy Beane to the list. One of the All Time busts. But wish we had him now.
ReplyDeleteShimi, what are doing riling up Mets fans for? They're insecure enough as it is. Funny, I've never seen Yankees fans get so upset when one of their star players is dissed.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for your Potomac Drainage Basin Indigenous Persons, Shannahan might be a good coach, but can anyone thrive under Chainsaw Dan? He reminds me a bit of Steinbrenner from the bad old days.
My favorite Mets fan forever: Doris From Rego Park:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Wc8AkpMrE